I am thinking Apostle Paul was a leader because people follow leaders….right?
People follow leaders indeed, they normally look for leaders or who’s the leader. Let unbelievers follow you, for ‘awhile’ like John the baptist, he has disciples on his own ‘for awhile’ until Jesus came and then his disciples followed Him, so we don’t know until when those people ‘followed’ Paul. I believe it’s ‘for awhile’ since he himself warned the Ephesian elders that, “there are some among you here who will draw disciples for themselves.” So the question really is ‘Are you drawing them to Christ or to ourselves? This is entirely up to us. People normally look and follow leaders, let them follow you, make sure of that because of your light, lead them, but not for long. When they started following you, push them to follow Christ by hearing His voice, being spirit-led. In this way, we are only taking men to Christ for him to be discipled. Or as Floyd McFlung would say, “we disciple the lost to convert, we don’t disciple the convert.” Or in leadership we say, ‘we serve those whom we lead, not lead those whom we serve.’ This is the difference between a servant and a leader.
If people followed Paul, yes, but following Paul is following Christ. If so, he himself did not call this ‘leadership’ but servanthood. He calls himself a ‘servant.’ Not a ‘leader’ nor a ‘servant-leader.’ Even that word ‘servant-leader’ confuses me, is he a ‘servant’ or a ‘leader?’ Or 50 percent of both?
People follow Jesus, because he is a leader. I think Paul said …. Follow me as I follow Jesus. So if Paul was not a leader why did he say….Follow me????
Yes, Jesus is a leader, and the ‘only’ leader in His Kingdom and everyone get a privilege to serve. But doesn’t mean we are a leader just because people follow you? Same as just because you go to church you become a Christian, or by going in the garage you become a car? I believe in HIS Kingdom, He is the leader, and everybody follows Him. I couln’t find verses that says, “lead one another” but only “serve one another.” Maybe, maybe all they mean about ‘leading’ someone is ‘serving’ someone? Serving those whom they lead to Christ? We do lead souls, unbelievers to Christ to come to repentance, lead the lost by your light. But when they themselves found The light, no need for human guidance because they will be spirit-led. We have the same holy Spirit. Each one can be spirit-led. I cannot tell you what to do or else you will be led by me. You cannot tell me what to do or else I will be led by you. We cannot be spirit-led then. That doesn’t mean you are led by the spirit makes you a leader just because you are led? Are you led to lead? No! You are led for yourselves. Don’t try to use what is God’s word for you to somebody else. God hasn’t give anyone the Headship of His Body yet, and will never-ever allow anyone to replace Him!
So again, maybe all these sort of ‘leadership stuff’ that they mean, means ‘serving?’ Jesus discourage any human leadership, either Roman style or Jewish style, he said, “NOT SO AMONG YOU FOR YOU ARE ALL BROTHERS.” There is leadership, it is called SPIRIT-LED. I respect the Holy Spirit as a PERSON, because he is, so it’s just like, if Kevin is your leader, then he can lead you, not me right? If I try ‘leading’ you then that be a great insult to Kevin. It’s the same using the word ‘my disciple,’ then you cannot be a disciple to others, or others cannot teach you – they be in trouble if they try. We only ‘MAKE’ disciples, we are not ‘to disciple.’ I may teach, but I cannot teach the WHOLE, ALL truth, but the spirit can teach ALL truth.” “He will guide you into ALL truth.” Have you ever tried hearing God teaching you? Did you try to argue? Nope, why? because it’s the Truth! Our brethren, each of us is only ‘filtering’ the words that we discuss and hear from each other. But it’s finality is let them hear God for their own situation. I cannot hear God for ‘your’ situation, sorry. I can only hear God for ‘my’ situation. Let’s teach, but don’t try to tell him exactly HOW to do it. Tell him WHAT to do. teach them to obey, but don’t teach them HOW to obey, rather let him hear God for his own situation and follow His leading. I cannot hear God for other people’s lives, I may but the person has to CONFIRM it, or else, it’s not true.
Honestly, you displayed a ‘spirit-led life’ here, such a wonderful man of God you are. We have surely learn from you. So, when you guys left, Albert and Jomie stayed close to me, we do a lot of conversations of the Word while Doing-Jesus-Life-Together, but when it comes to finality of it all, they know how to hear God for themselves. Example, they went to Bohol island, first time local mission trips, they didn’t ask my permission at all inspite its lack of funds. Instead, they just letting me know that they are going. I think deeply about it and wondering what has happened. I didn’t say anything instead just letting it go. Then one night as I open the door of my room, God said, reminded me of Acts saying, “The Holy Spirit sends them…” remember somewhere in Acts that they went somewhere? And it says there that, it’s “The holy Spirit sends them…?” Acts 13:2-4
Another example was the most craziest, they make me crazy here, because they keep on praying for the sick without asking my permission. You know in traditional church, when leaders wanting to pray or do something, they would ask the Pastor’s permission? Everything should pass to him. But these guys Albert and Jomie, they just went and that’s it, and the person was instantly healed even! So, the Holy Spirit keeps reminding me about being spirit-led. I posted on facebook wall like this: “We cannot appreciate the Holy Spirit until we have taste His fullness!”
Leadership was never in the mind of Paul when he left the church in Ephesus, because he ‘entrusted them with the Holy Spirit,’ rather he was worried about it – “there are some among you here who will draw disciples for themselves.” That is taking over the leadership of the Holy Spirit. We are warned then.
So again, maybe these so called ‘leadership characteristics’ that they call, are ‘servant-hood characters?’ Why? because the apostles never uses the word ‘leadership’ instead he uses the word ‘servant’ in many verses. He calls himself “a servant.” Never you can find he calls himself a ‘leader.’ Hebrews 13:7, the word ‘lead’ is not in the original text, even if it is, it’s only one verse, and we cannot make that as a doctrine of leadership.
Paul says, “Follow me” because he is ‘following Christ.’ In other words, he “serves those whom he leads [to Christ], not the other way around, “he leads those whom he serve.” One is servanthood, the later is leadership.
Also as a Father myself I lead my wife and children by example… so this is leading???? a Father is a leader. I full agree on servanthood leadership…..That is the model.
Call it ‘servant-hood,’ don’t mix it. You wanna SERVE YOUR NEXT GENERATION, like David. Serve your next generation namely your children and your grand children. We know that there is always a fight on “Who’s the leader?” than “Who’s the servant?” Our children may fight ‘Who’s the ‘next’ leader?” when we die. Well, of course it’s the ‘older brother!’ Remember the ‘older brother’ in the Prodigal Son story? I don’t wanna even start teaching it to my kids. My motto is, ‘lead souls to Christ, serve your brother!”
“Servant-Leadership” word could never be found in the Scriptures, ‘Servanthood” is. Jesus is the only leader, and everyone follows. how’s that?
The five fold ministry, I think has to be people….. “It was given some to be Apostles, some to be prophets…..bla bla bla…. Paul. as you say was “Apostle Paul” so I think the 5 fold is people not just gifts.
It is gift to His people, whoever the spirit wills. Some may be visible than the others in individuality. No, I didn’t say “Apostle Paul.” I said, “Paul, an apostle.” Big difference. One is using his gifts as a title, the later is simply mentioning his gifting. Just like if I play Violin, would you call me “Violin Molong?” or “Molong, the violinist?” So, “Paul, an apostle.” Not “Apostle Paul.”
Sorry, I am a bit strict of wordings because I care for what are we communicating to our next generation. Definitions defines relationships, if we’re not careful we may communicate the wrong message. Just like saying, “I go to Church” means that the building is the church. Very misleading as “A.W. Tozer bluntly said.
So, the 5-fold is gifts to His people. Fathering and mothering their next generation, serving their next generation. Jesus is always pushing on servanthood, never leadership. He is the head, we are not. It is His Body, we are only a part of it.
So where are they…….?????? hiding ///// maybe the church has thrown them out…..heheheheheh
Probably it was thrown out by the church. They are found in the world and does simple church!
Anyway mate….I appreciate all your thoughts.
Well, I enjoy too. Sorry for ‘disagreeing,’ but know that this is not the main issue, we practice the same anyhow right? Being spirit led.
I bump into quotes of Albert Einstien that says, “If the practice doesn’t fit the theory, change the practice.” What do you think? I think, it’s ‘change the theory’ right? What’s the use of the theory if it doesn’t work?
As for my humble opinion…….comments from you are always welcome.